HEROIC REALMS

Something that was mentioned to me last game was that there seemed to be an excessive amount of swearing. I've been known to let fly myself on occassion, but I figured that perhaps we should start a list of in-game swears so that we can endeavor to use those and help us all stay in game.

My list so far:
Orc dung - e.g. - Terrengoth has returned? That's Orc dung!
Driel's tits - e.g. - Driel's tits, that's a tall order!
Torom's nuts - e.g. - What in the name of Torom's nuts do YOU want?!

Well to be perfectly frank, I don't think "Driel's tits" or "Torom's nuts" are any better than their translation into mundane language. That just opens the door to rediculous things like an exclamation of surprise such as "Holy Tits!" because Driel's breasts, seeing she is a goddess, are in fact divine. And I'll tell ya, if Laurelin heard someone icly say "Laroon's tits" they can expect a magic strike or three headed their way because she would find it disrespectful to a diety she holds in the highest of esteem. If someone is playing a devout cleric of say Driel, you might be inadvertantly ruining their experience by showing no ic respect for the diety simply to have an oog excuse to curse. Whatever mixed phrases and such one might invent, the fact remains that the sillier the phrases are, the faster they would pull me out of game and disrupt immersion. In the mundane world I curse like a sailor, but never have I exclaimed "*insert female name of notoriety" 's tits!" It just sounds silly.

Perhaps it is better if we do our best and better to avoid using foul language in game. If it must be done, cussing that is, IC then perhaps words actually used in medieval period films would be more acceptable terminology. Words like "Shite" or "Road apple" would be obvious substitutes for the word "shit". As Chad pointed out "Dung" works also. Ass and Jackass have been used for ages, because they refer to the well loved and very stubborn mule of old. Some deviation from the term I have seen is Arse when referring to the rear fender of an average PC/NPC.

The point is, in medieval times, the people were god fearing people and cussing or foul language was not as much of a fabric of their society as it is ours. It is likely the best bet we all work to curb the tendancy to curse IC.

I think that actually makes a lot of sense to tone down the cursing if possible. Because also if there are new players who aren't big into cursing then we aren't also turning them away from the game either.

While we are censoring, I would also like to point out that any use of the terms "Heaven" or "Hell" is quite inappropriate in game because, at least to my knowledge, the afterlife of HR is very different then the modern Judeo-Christian concepts.

However, for all I know, the terms evolved purely for metaphorical reasons, allowing the peasantry to use them as curses. Keith? Any clarifications here? I need to know for songs I'm bastardizing for next game

Oh, and Laurelin, while I do agree with your point, I've always felt that using a deity's name in vulgarity is perfectly acceptable. After all, if a god deficates, is it not "holy shit"?

Dawn has a great point in the idea that if we need foul language that curses used in a similar time period is better. I guess we all need to think as we would if we were actors during a Renaissance Faire. I think I have a list somewhere in my desk. I'll take a look for it.

I'm talking exclamations, not insults. It's easy to memorize a few and throw them out ("Your mind burns as brightly as tallow!"), but it's tricky to keep in character when you are stumbling around in the dark and trip over a root. Hence, having several exclamational swears in your reactions is what we should really aim for

Well maybe I can put it in a better light...

The expression of the goddess' breasts is rather crude just as i'm sure you made mention of lets say the Virgin Mary in the same vane, it would sound rather vulgar and quite juvenille. Just sounds more out of character to me than "Go "F" off"

As for heaven and hell, aside from the obvious definitions, the skys are often referred to as the heavens.

To make it more clear lets just pull the definition that does not refer to christianity:

heav·en (hěv'ən)
n.
The sky or universe as seen from the earth; the firmament. Often used in the plural.
Any of the places in or beyond the sky conceived of as domains of divine beings in various religions.
The celestial powers; the gods. Often used in the plural: The heavens favored the young prince.
A condition or place of great happiness, delight, or pleasure: The lake was heaven.

So yeah... that seems pretty IC relevant to me to use.... now hell as it does not relate to christianity...

–noun 1. the place or state of punishment of the wicked after death; the abode of evil and condemned spirits; (ie. Gehenna or Tartarus.)
2. any place or state of torment or misery: They made their father's life a hell on earth.
3. something that causes torment or misery: Having that cut stitched without anesthesia was hell.
4. the powers of evil.
5. the abode of the dead; Sheol or Hades.
6. extreme disorder or confusion; chaos: The children let both dogs into the house, and all hell broke loose.
7. heck 1 (def. 2).
8. a receptacle into which a tailor throws scraps.
9. Also called hellbox. Printing. a box into which a printer throws discarded type.
10. the utterance of “hell” in swearing or for emphasis.
11. the hell, Informal. a. (used as an intensifier to express surprise, anger, impatience, etc.): Why the hell can't the trains run on time?
b. (used sarcastically or ironically to express the opposite of what is being stated): Are you listening to me? The hell you are!


–interjection 12. (used to express surprise, irritation, disgust, etc.)

—Verb phrase13. hell around, Slang. to live or act in a wild or dissolute manner: All they cared about was drinking and helling around.
—Idioms14. be hell on, Slang. a. to be unpleasant to or painful for.
b. to be harmful to: These country roads are hell on tires.

15. for the hell of it, Informal. a. to see what will happen; for adventure, fun, excitement, etc.: For the hell of it, let's just get on the next bus and see where it takes us.
b. with no particular purpose; for no special reason: I called him up for the hell of it, and he offered me a job.

16. get or catch hell, Slang. to suffer a scolding; receive a harsh reprimand: We'll get hell from our parents for staying out so late again.
17. give someone hell, Informal. to reprimand or reproach severely.
18. go to hell in a handbasket. Informal. handbasket (def. 2).
19. hell on wheels, Slang. extremely demanding, fast-paced, aggressive, effective, or the like: The new job is hell on wheels. Our sales staff is hell on wheels when it comes to getting the most out of every account.
20. like hell, Informal. a. with great speed, effort, intensity, etc.: We ran like hell to get home before the storm. She tried like hell to get him to change his mind.
b. (used sarcastically or ironically to express the opposite of what is being stated): He says the motor will never break down? Like hell it won't!

21. play hell with, Slang. to deal recklessly with; bring injury or harm to: Snowstorms played hell with the flow of city traffic.
22. raise hell, Slang. a. to indulge in wild celebration.
b. to create an uproar; object violently to: She'll raise hell when she sees what your rabbit has done to her garden.

23. the or to hell with, Informal. (used to express dismissal, rejection, contempt, disappointment, or the like): If we have to walk five miles to see the view, the hell with it! He wouldn't even speak to me, so to hell with him!
24. what the hell, Informal. (used to express lack of concern or worry, indifference, abandonment, surrender, etc.): As long as you're borrowing $100, what the hell, borrow $200.


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Yeah I didn't notice "Lucifer's party zone" anywhere... so yeah I think Hell works just fine too. Not to mention, we do have devils and demon creatures in game, I doubt they come from Shangrila... maybe they come from those two islands....Driel's Tits?

Err...I hesitate to correct, but I hasten to be an arse

Both definitions, even in the metaphorical sense, are denotationally reliant on the precepts of heaven being the equivalent of paradise and hell being eternal torment after death. Without those initial bases, the metaphorical use of the words are meaningless, so my original contention stands (at least in my mind).

Oh, and yes, I am aware that "denotationally" is not yet an alternate form of "denotative" in the dictionary, but I'm working on it!

Well Torom's nuts...

The lore in the game refers to celestial beings (in the sky or heavens), the 9 gods. Divine beings, who I happen to know for a fact the High Elves of Farlenia look to the stars in the heavens to garner celestial insight.

So just like the gods of Greek Mythology and Norse Mythology and countless other religious versions, they were in the heavens and others in the under dark world of various names, one of which is hell, long before the influx of christianity . And it is doubtful that every thought and or description of said places were precisely the same. It is a basic theology of good and evil, life and death, etc. Its up to you to look past the roots you find in christianity and think of the terms more loosely.

Not sure I can argue this with in-game points, but my main point was that because the two terms are so tied into set real-world ideas that the use of them in game might be detracting from the experience, much like using <bleep>, <bleep>, or <bleep>

Now, as for real world, don't forget that the Greek Gods resided on Olympus, but souls of mortals went down to Tartarus and, those who were good were sent to the desert and tasked to cross it. On the other side of that desert was the River Lethe, or the River of Forgetfulness and, if the soul could remember not to drink of this water, they could choose their next reincarnation. I recall learning in college that a soul had to fill a mortal body five times without drinking from the river in order to be accepted into the Elysian Fields, which was described as being, "The pure essence of paradise and the true Form of joy."

As for the Norse, they believed in 9 different worlds with the gods residing on Aesir while the souls of warriors went to Valhalla. The souls of the common folk might go there, but may just as likely end up in one of the other worlds. I wish I could go on, but I've found the literature a bit lacking on Norse non-warrior afterlife beliefs. Though! It is interesting to note that the Norse world of Ice was called "Hel".

In contrast to these and many other religions, the Judeo-Christian concept is surprisingly different because, for them, the afterlife centers around being a part of their God. Heaven is becoming one with that God, and Hell is the absence of said God.

*dusts chalk off his hands*

Then what you are saying is we shouldnt have a dark realm or a shadow realm or a fire realm, etc, considering somewhere sometime some religion believed in the existance of similar places.

The language we speak is English, a language notoriously difficult for foreigners to learn because one word can have so many meanings. As is the case in both heaven and hell. The terms as you have pointed out refer to "places" in which the spirit will dwell in christianity, Im certainly not disputing that. However, the meanings of the words are varied beyond that single definition. Just as the places the spirits dwell are varied by definition, description, etc within different belief structures. To limit their useage based on a single part of their definition rather than the way the terms are used otherwise seems more like nit picking.

Should we eliminate words like paradise or phrases such as being damned to eternal torment because of its similarity to the beliefs of Christianity? I understand and completely agree with not permitting things like "Christmas" in game or July 4th, because neither have any relevance whatsoever to what is happening in game. But to state someone can not explain gazing at the stars as staring off into the heavens is kinda silly. It all depends on the useage and not the words heaven and hell. If someone were to state they went to heaven and heard the choir of angels, I would agree with you, there are not to my knowledge a choir of angels in the game... but there is a sky.

If the word is used in the context of the game as it pertains to non religious definitions, why even bat an eye? Just consider it in the context it is used.

Well, I'm out of big words to use, so I'll give the debate to you

Thank you for the intellectual stimulation. I don't get nearly enough of this sort of thing at work

Heh, my pleasure?

I get your point Oro, but everything is perception and I can honestly say I dont see heaven and hell as strict christian terms. I suppose I am just looking at it from an entirely different perspective, one that is inclusive of factors other than the default. Paradise and The fiery Pits of Doom have been a part of so many cultures, mythology and religions the line is very blurred. With various names, descriptions and directions how to get there depending on belief structures, there seems a common theme amongst them: Reward for obedience and torment for disobedience.

When I hear/say/write/or think about it, in game, Im thinking along the lines of the celestial dieties of divine power that are believed to dwell in the domain of the sky or beyond in Trill, not earth. (Really, if we want to debate terminology, would soil and earth elementals be called earth since the game happens on another planet entirely that never heard of earth? At some point it becomes semantics) And hell is the hallway between the dark realm and the fire plane... which, incidently would be heaven to a Toromite. Ah Perception... always twisting things!

Eliora wrote:I think that actually makes a lot of sense to tone down the cursing if possible. Because also if there are new players who aren't big into cursing then we aren't also turning them away from the game either.

I agree with Eliora 150% and do not feel that there should be ingame cursing that would be used in the real world. If someone wanted to say Arse I think that is appropriate.

Driel's Tits and Torom's nuts are offensive and could be perceived by some as sexual harassment so I do not think it would be wise to say such things ingame. Aside from that it is entirely offensive from an ingame perspective as other have mentioned players hold their Gods to the highest and would not even think of damning them.

So, wait...using profanity (which is intended to offend) that includes a god would be offensive? Isn't that the point of swearing?

I think its the tits and nuts parts with the gods names that turns people off.

Well Torom's arm-pit odor! It's just not offensive if it doesn't offend somebody! *laughs* Of course, we can also go into detail regarding the dirt on the back of his knee, but that would just be disgusting, wouldn't it?

Well... people already told you they find it offensive. I mean are you so attached to the phrases that it really matters why it bothers someone? Personally, I think it sounds silly and if said would likely eyeroll me right out of character and immersion. C'mon, you don't think it sounds like something kids whisper and giggle because its almost a bad word? Your a smart cookie, I know you can create something quite snarky and clever thats better than that.

All this and I don't think it's going to break my habit of retorting to most bad things with "Oh bloody hell." >_>;

I simply try to use words that are ye olde cusses.

S'wounds (A declaration. also pronounced "zounds!")
Feth (Not actually a curse, but sounds like one)
Bugger (I say that one alot)
Fye (The original f-bomb)
Bloody
Arse

How bout instead of "Go to hell!" use "Torom take you!"
Perhaps finding simple solutions that are less offensive, but still in game offensive would work?

Oh, like when we taunted the skeletons by calling at them, "Your mother wears flesh!"?

Look, I have no attachments, they are just words. Don't dare me to come up with something snarky because, quite frankly, most people would find that offensive in AND out of game, because when I get snarky, people usually have to run to a dictionary.

As for me, I think I'll stick with, "Tell Vith I said 'hi'."

A few I thought up at work out of boredom, not all curses, but funny at least:

"Oh for the love of Driel..."

"What in the name of Torom's bony arse?"

And the classic for fantasy settings: "Godsdamnit."

The twoexpletives I tend to use, neither one with concious thought are 'fuck' and 'damn', both of which are age-old. Not sure HOW it became a swear, but FUCK is an acronym coming from Fornication Under the Consent of the King. Guess what. We have a king. And damn is just a shortening of damnation.

Stll, when ever I swear purposely, I will endevour to use more appropriate swears. Not that I usually say much when fighting, which is the only time I would be swearing on purpose.

Though I did have a great taunt for the silver thingI never got to use...
"Your mother was a ring and your father was a chasity belt!"

The only time I really did start resorting to saying things meant to anger people was when Eliora was mad at Stark, and because I personally try to avoid curses, I told him that he was a "Wart-hog faced buffoon" (yes, I did quote The Princess Bride) and instead of making Stark angry, it just gave him giggle fits because he thought it was hysterical.

I think things like that are awesome ways to in game curse. Go to the princess bride and steal "Warthog faced buffoon" or go to Monty Python and quote the silly french guys as they taunt the "kah-nig-its" because those are easy to tell that they are supposed to be taunts and curses but out of character are so funny and that you can't help but laugh. Besides, then new players might recognize them as well and feel far less lost in the Trilladorian world with the recognizing of some silly taunting.

I think some quotes now and then happen, but I don't think quoting movies is the answer to the problem, because that too can get out of hand. Before you know it, we aren't larping but re-enacting a movie.

Eliora's example of a way to be insulting or expressive of anger ig shows there are many alternatives to what we instinctively resort to. Simple formula as exemplified above, 1. find appropriate creature to situation (pig, dog, orc, hog, cow, mule, porcupine, etc) 2. Determine which is worse, front or rear of said creature or an odd irregular features and 3. Draw comparison and apply.

Id think if everyone made a concerted effort to talk ig with less useage of "foul" language it would correct itself. Of course there will be slips, and if someone fell and slammed their knee hard enough to make them say something out of game, there is no need to make a federal case out of it. But gratuitous and liberal useage of foul language is better suited for a Ranger game in Madison Square Garden than Trillador.

Many of us use it quite often in real life and some habits are hard to break when you don't even realize it. Now that everyone has been pretty much made aware that it is an issue, Id think everyone will make an effort to watch their language. If it continues to be out of hand, then complaints about it should either be directly and politely discussed with the offender... or if you don't want to do that, you have player reps, npcs and a GM that can help address the issue. As always the GM has the final word on it.